Slavery -- eye of the beholder?
In the past few months two women that I truly admire have left me scratching my head on my very entrenched position on virtual slavery in Second Life and other immersive online communities.
It's role play. I get it. What I've never quite come to understand is why.
Daequix Scarborough posted a composite photo that cut to the chase, inviting a discourse on a subject that represents one of the true digital divides in online culture, and perhaps one of the most controversial and likely misunderstood issues:
http://flickr.com/photos/daequix_scarborough/758894526/
On one side the image depicts a woman wearing silks, something characteristic of the Gorean rp that makes up a significant part of the cultural experiences within Second Life. The other side of the photo depicts the same woman wearing business attire. The word "slave" flanks each half of this image. The pic's creator then pokes us with another stick, tucking the following challenge statement beneath:
" It is my opinion that in any form, women (as well as men) are slave...whether it be to one Master or many."
Talk about food for thought! I immediately "favourited" (my English teacher would beat me with another stick for trying to turn this word into a verb ... ~laughs~) this entry, and left a little comment about the powerful and provocative metaphor Ms. Daequix had presented us with. Here was her reply:
I don't always think people really get that there are many different slaves and slavers....as well as, many different freedoms. It's just in our choices.Are we more bound and gagged by our system or by a chosen Master....are we more freed by being a kajira or no?
Enuff said! LoL..."i must the soapbox put away" (a little known quote by Yoda)
I'm so glad she opened that door a crack wider, because this is one of the things that I find myself driven to distraction by more often than not, and that I crave an honest dialogue around. Here's the "why" in my own response ...
_____________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________Actually, don't hurry on putting it away. You wield it very capably. I have to admit that this is one of those issues that has plagued me from the moment I joined SL. I never quite understood why any woman would make giving up her personal freedoms (and part of her personality?) a conscious fantasy choice in RP. This is not a judgemental statement so much as an honest curiousity and need to understand.
Part of my own bias comes from my first life where I've spent a number of years working to help free little girls from the child sex trade in various countries, including in my own. Anything that robs a woman of her right to choose and her voice essentially drives me around the bend, and that has certainly been coloured by the drama of my first life experiences with this.
It seems something entirely different to people in the context of SL, and I have to admit you are the second woman I admire who's made me do a double take on this issue in the past few months. The first is a fellow Canadian -- very bright, articulate, thoughtful business woman in first life. I've never been brave enough to simply ask her about her choices in SL at the risk of offending her, though some how I suspect she wouldn't be surprised if I did open that door.
This picture of your's was such a stark kick in the arse on the hypocrisy of our choices. On one hand there is the literal choice to rp as a slave; on the other something less obvious but in some ways more insidious because we often feel (unlike the first example) that we have no choice.
So, bravo for inviting a discourse on this! Ignore Yoda, wise old soul that he may be. I hope you -won't- put that soap box away, because you've actually hit on something that is an intrinsic part of the SL culture and I suspect is misunderstood by a lot more people than myself.
Thanks for the chance to stop and reflect, and for providing a safe forum to explore this in where some of us are simply too damned afraid to ask. Looking forward to what transpires here ...
I truly am looking forward to the other elbows that get placed on her virtual kitchen table there, and invite you to at least peek in if not tuck a thought or two of your own in the comments section of this very thoughtful exploration:
http://flickr.com/photos/daequix_scarborough/758894526/
So thanks, Dae, for the chance to scratch a truly perpetual itch!
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Having seen numerous people fall into these cults online, I strenuously question the nature of the "consent". When people work so strenuously to tell you they are doing something of their own free will, yet you see so many victims' groups, you have to wonder. Like BDSM, Gor and similar slave cults rely on always keeping outsiders off balance, always telling them they can't ever learn enough about the belief system, and always telling them they are "uneducated". It's the trick used by any organized extremist movement to try to control critics with legitimate concerns.
A classic technique is to use the man-bites-dog argumentation that takes the critics' assumptions and tries to turn them on their ear. For example, the idea that a woman in a business suit is as much a slave to a corporation as a woman in silks blah blah. But...a woman in a business suit making her own income and decisions and so on is very, very different from a woman kneeling at the foot of an online Master wearing revealing silks. Fundamentalist Christian women will tell you that they enjoy true freedom only be embodying the Biblical injunction to have the husband of the household serve as the "cover" and leader to whom they are subordinate; fundamentalist Muslims will tell you that coveringthemselves in burquas actually frees them from oversexualized encounters with males. Western women and liberals in general internationally do not accept these argumentations from extreme Christians or Muslims as an excuse to abrogate women's rights and achievements in equality in the last century; why should they capitulate to these same arguments in cyber clothing online, with the liberal guilt-tweaker "consent" tacked over them?
Slavery is slavery. Violence is violence. Coercion is coercion. No court of law recognizes the notion of "consent" as an excuse to commit the criminal acts of torture, slavery, battery. Indeed, the courts are filled with stories of women seeking relief from batterers who set themselves up in various dominating households or cult compounds.
BDSM, Gor and other cults thrive online because of the rapidity of technological change and the acceleration with which we are all asked to adopt to change. They are run first and foremost by the tekkies themselves who fear not only loss of their own control of technology by the empowerment that new technology, especially Web 2.0 social media, brings to them; they are afraid themselves of what social media does to diminish the individual.
Many people think they're the ones who should run hive mind; they're all for wikis as long as they get to edit the Wikipedia page; social media is great for empowerment as long as they profit. It's a very, very old story, Sue, and don't be swayed by arguments that use emotional tactics like throwing you into doubt through false contrasts, through endlessly telling you that you can never understand and sympathize enough.
Hey Prok. As you know, I have no trouble standing on my own two feet when it comes to lines in the sand ~grins~
As my comments say straight up, I want to understand. I have absolutely no context whatsoever for relating to this choice, and as is the case in almost every controversial issues, there's a lot of complex thinking that goes on behind the scenes.
I try very hard not to lay my moral template overtop of someone else's, particularly in the context of a place like Second Life where the premise is to safely explore sides of ourself that we tend to suppress for a whole host of reasons (social mores, personal moral codes, fear, habit, tradition). I'm the last person to point a finger at someone for the way they choose to explore (I make choices a lot of people wouldn't agree with either), so long as no one else gets hurt. That is my personal line, and as you know there is a grievous line crossed in the very real aspect of forced servitude in Second Life, as is the case in children and young women who have in fact been forced into the sex trade by first life monsters who continue to exploit SL as yet another pipeline to the almighty buck.
Women choosing to roleplay as slaves are consenting adults making personal choices that are really none of my business. I am, however, insanely curious about the "why" as I said, which is what prompted this blog. I'm not sure how many people will open up in Daequix's photo thread. I imagine it's a pretty scary thing to out yourself when there is so much hostility directed at people who make unpopular choices. While you won't find me lining up to try it out, I -do- want to understand, because people are complex creatures with a whole lotta stuff mixed into their psyches and souls, and the right to choose how we play is one of the things most at risk today even in places like Second Life.
Just my two cents, and hoping to see a continued discourse evolve in Dae's thread :^)
Sue.
If there's one thing I crave as much as chocolate and sex, it's a thoughtful discourse with intelligent wo/men about things I don't yet grok. I arrived in SL two and a half years ago with a gigantic stick up my arse. Ask my friends and they'll tell you just how judgemental I really was ~grins~ . Damn, did I have opinions, and I wasn't afraid to share them whether you wanted to hear them or not. While I considered myself to be a pretty open-minded girl, I have to admit it's taken a lot of things pushing me way beyond my comfort zone (gender benders, my first encounter with a furry, dealing with customers through their slaves) to make me realize that what I enjoy most about SL is both the chance to learn things that neither fit into school issued textbooks or my 40+ years of cultivating personal boundaries.
A -lot- of what I've done in my life was guided by things like "this is what you're expected to do/these are the right choices ...", and it's incredibly liberating to arrive where I am and find out that I can indeed colour outside of the lines without selling my soul.
If I wanted to surround myself with a bunch of people who thought and acted just like I do, I never would have stuck around Second Life ~laughs~
There are some things I will likely never understand, but the privilege of exploring and learning in a safe space is something I hope I never take for granted.
While I wouldn't dream of being quite so pompous (not you) as to ascribe a simple blanket explanation for why such a wide group of people would engage in something as obviously uncomplicated as sex (sarcasm mode: off) I can offer a few insights, having spent some years in the "lifestyle" real life.
D/s (Dominance and submission, the general rubric under which most powerplay activities fall) practiced as a modern lifestyle can be seen as the structure and codification for the essential power imbalance in most any relationship, no matter how staunchly held to be fully equal - one partner always holds more power in one or more areas , whereas another might hold more in others... D/s as a lifestyle is _supposed_ to form an agreement where one partner consciously surrenders power and the other consciously assumes responsibility for that power.
Some common reasons one might submit:
the classic: a business person who makes decisions and holds power through the day, might find it relaxing to submit to someone else during the evening, letting their partner take on the aggressive role in bed, dictating how long or short or when the event takes place, all the way up to edgy roleplaying and bondage. Think of how many times you've seen D/s in movies and it's a politico or businessman caught in the act of being someone's puppy....
Keeping up appearances: one might have conflicting desires, and rather than become the town slut 24/7, reserve that role for private time with someone who will not condemn you for it, and give you the psychological "out" of being "forced".
Modern social roles: there is a great pressure in the wake of the sexual and feminist revolution for women (and men) to be strong and independent - small wonder that some might enjoy the break from it (like the businessperson case).
SL provides a good place for this: annonymity, freedom to explore ANYTHING and no messy marks or danger of ending up in a dozen ziplocks in someone's freezer.
As to the popularity of Gor is SL, I'll hazard a guess, as it's always seemed like D&D meets S&M to me: Norman's Gor has a fairly extensive structure threaded throughout the books, with a well defined set of behaviors and rituals. This makes things a lot easier for a submissive in learning how they're expected to behave, as well as the luxury of tantalizing silks - a far cry from the more debasing wear that the leather community straps their subbies up in. In Gor, a slave girl is a prize, valued for her beauty and desireability - shallow conceits to be sure, but on an Id level, something I feel safe in thinking most people want on some level. Gor in fact is about the only really socially structured area of the D/s community that I can think of, and the only one that could be called a "cult" - though since fans of Gor don't even agree on everything (Norman himself varied in his portrayals of the characters over time) and as there's no central authority, I'd hesitate to call it a cult per se.
Lest I be accused of being one-sided, there are of course hazards aside from the physical - many people go into domination because they feel powerless in their lives to one degree or another - the same place most psychologists point to for rape motivation, so an iffy place to put your trust casually. Also, the percieved phenomenon of "subspace" - an almost altered perception that some submissives can enter that can render measured consent meaningless. However, as long as both parties are coming from a position of even semi-solid self awareness and care for their partner, D/s can be, if practiced as the motto goes "Safe, Sane and Consensual", a profoundly deep, therapeutic and secure way of life or even simply candy sprinkles for the otherwise vanilla.
I think the key to understanding this is very elusive...and often barred from us by our own life experiences and biases, just as you highlight Sue, ....but that's alright to be honest. The reality is that at least from a Gorean standpoint, (IMHO) a slave isn't really robbed of her personality in the slightest....and often times is quite powerful in many subtle ways. There are nuances and almost deceptive shadings and degrees that those that are not fully into the lifestyle can never appreciate or truly understand.
The picture was meant to be a solid kick in the arse (not your arse in particular!), mainly because of my discovering myself featured in an article listing my Flickr work as being objectifying and sexually degrading to women.....and it made me think alot about women's roles in society, and the perceptions of people in so many different layers of our world....from the youthful and their biases/perceptions to the elders. I found that it invited my own thoughts to highlight what I do see as a societal hypocrisy about women and their roles.
Why is it that a powerful business woman who IS a slave to her work is more highly perceived than a devoted slave to his/her Master? Each takes initiative, supreme attention to detail, committment, and often times subjugating one's owns desires to those of another, be it a corporation or another individual. Yet the business woman is lauded while the slave is sneered at, and thought to be weak. Weak and slave should never be used in the same sentence honestly.....there are no weak slaves...
Some might say "Well that business woman has the right to walk away!" In reality, let's be real here folks-- so does that slave. Most especially within a SL culture. One can change an avatar appearance, as well as a name with the click of a "Enrollment" button much more easily than that business woman can change jobs....and don't get me started on employee rights.....
In regards to your friend from Canada: I think that she would be more than open to your questions, and I would encourage you to discuss it with her, and in fact I invite you to do so with her, and if that isn't comfortable I'd be more than happy to talk about it any time you wish....
I'm not a practicing Gorean any longer, yet,I have a feel and comfort with the culture that will never leave me. Since its dinner time...I'll let Yoda hold the soapbox for a few more :)
Funny ol world - someone should sell tickets.
I did leave off the sexual reasons for submission - the love of constraint, or domination or the pain/pleasure continum or the million specific fetishes that make up the rainbow of human sexuality, and finding the partner who doesn't just love you in spite of them, but loves you for them. It's all fetish after all - you like big guys with wavey dark hair and blue eyes - that's fetish. Tight bums- fetish. Big boobs/small boobs/freckles/red hair... it's all sexualizing elements that do not directly play into physical gratification.
There's an old joke in the D/s community "What I do is kinky - what you do is weird". Which is to say, we're all biased towards what we prefer. Me, I prefer day old black coffee.
ok ok ok. i love your sensitive touch in explaining/ understanding slave/master, gor, etc, and the first comment made to this blog is just great.
yet, i am more like <i>" how you were",</i> sue. my tolerance level is pretty low concerning some of the things i can't and wont agree on, let it be sl or rl.
i've come across many slaves, and even one of my best friends in sl is ex/gor. i am not waving the feminism flag here, but some of these people who loved to kneel and more, i've discovered are rl genderswitchers. a man that plays a submissive female, for whatever reason. because his wife/gf is to dominant in rl, among many more reasons. i don't understand why men want to see us women in such degrading "roles".
this is not just for slave play, but includes any form of childplay, beastiality, and some form of prostitution as well. i hate it, i have zero tolerance for it. i don't want to understand the "reasoning" of 2 adults pretending to be play daddy and his little girl. it is beyond my comprehention. and if i could see these " consending adults" in rl, i may would bust a cap in their rp'ng, fantasizing asses.
sorry, for being so blunt in your blog sue, and i appologize 1 mill times for my harsh words. but i truly believe sl is a huge " illegal playground" for some people who may or may not also live out these fantasies in rl. just the thought of it makes me shiver.
i, too worked with homeless women and abused kids and teenagers a while back, mainly what north americans would call the " minority people ", and what i've seen, babys being sold for crack, toddlers being sexually abused by some bastards, teenagers being send out by their own mothers to trick, to make money for her next fix!?! i can't and wont accept people who play in sl what is a tragedy in rl. i mean is their life so complicated and ruled out by sexual fantasies that they can't live out in rl, yet they bring these to sl and can cause some havoc with perhaps underage people who frequent the maingrid.
words are powerfull, everyone, words can lead to all sort of activities, a master commanding his sl slave to do certain things in rl. i have met people like that and a female told me that she likes to be ordered around by her mistress in rl, to make her do things she would have never thought of doing in rl. where are the boundaries here?
sl fantasies are a reflection of our rl personas. anyone who say no it is not so, is a dam liar. we would not spend tremendous time on sl, if we would not be mentally stimulated/ aroused/ challenged by other residents, av's, people. don't get me wrong now..i careless when someone is silk sits in front of me and rp's torward me. i just don't play along and usually they leave pretty quickly. any child av i see, gets shot/orbited on sight.
when people try to tell me' hell you roleplay too', i always say..yes i do, i roleplay my real self, it is an extention/ continuation of my rl self into sl, with feelings, attitude, pain, moods, just like i am in rl.
sl can be a fantastic place to be, but it can also be a place of some digital hell. we live and breathe behind our monitors. everyone i know or have met, invested rl feelings into sl, how else can you seperate you rl persona or sl persona? you are still YOU. people get upset, bang on their keyboards or log off crying and being depressed for days. it all happens, every day every minute, right now.
so, for the " slaves/ rp's ", all i have to say to them - popp some xanax, grow some confidence - get that mind out of that circle, believe in yourself and not some virtual words that may follow and harm your rl persona
nuff said,
gala~
When I started in Second Life, it was just a game… Now, I know that doesn’t make a lost of sense, because…. Um, hello? It is a game, right?
However, when I came in world I encountered furries, demons, AV’s that resembled various cartoon characters, purple people, green people, white people… no, like "Missing Image White Because I Want to Be this White" people… and everyone was just doing their own thing, as whatever they wanted to be.
I stumbled upon a beautiful sim, with gardens and…lo and behold not a casino or club in sight! Wooded areas, with animals… massive ships and I became immediately attracted to the beauty in that sim. I had seen the Ghetto’s, the clubs… SL’s pride: The Crack Den…((Lol)), so finding a sim of this nature was a pleasant find…
A friendly woman greeted me as I walked along the dock. She was on her knees, wearing silks, addressing me as Mistress…and... Well, how could that possibly strike me as odd? I just left a place where a demon was grinding on a stunning drow with blue hair...
After talking with her for a while, I kinda got an idea of what was going on there. She gave me stories to read, and passages from John Norman’s books. I watched a girl write an awesome serve (which means she emoted preparing a drink for her Master, it was a beautiful story too..), on the fly at that...
I role played with those individuals from that point on… Started an amazingly expensive collection of the finest silks, and met some of the most interesting people… made some of my closest friends. There were raids, people getting captured, dancing in the tavern… and yes, plenty of D/s relationships.
In my experience, and I do apologize if anyone disagrees…
A Gorean relationship, Master and Slave is a very tight bond revolving around trust and admiration. Those who take it seriously have real feelings… but there are many who view it as just a game. They could be the demon, however they decide to be the beautiful slave, who entertains the tavern with her dancing… telling a story, creating a character (as it is role playing).
Those who put their RL heart into it, have a slightly different situation, as they put their selves in their Master’s hands, completely… and at the same time, his heart is held in her hands, and she’s cherished on a whole new level... and, again, its not for everyone. She isn't loosing herself, as its the 'self' part of her that he charishes enough to protect and make his. Her pride is to serve with fire, warm her Master's heart as it lays within her palms. His pride is to collar her to him, to let the world know she is his...
In conclusion, I guess I just wanted add my own 2 cents to this thread, separate the Gorean RP from the other D/s type sims in world… It all made more sense to me once I went through my mid-second life crisis.
…I'll just add this on here... it's sorta on topic so I’ll just include: It really takes all types to makeup SL, its amazing to see how many different cultures/scenes/themes we have in world… Demons, Drows, Vampires, Strippers, Dancers, Escorts, Slaves, Doms, Furniture Makers, Texture Artists, Assassins, Military Personnel … and I think the cast of the Star Ship Enterprise are hiding in world somewhere too… right? Lol. <3 A.Tae
I think that applies here. I have nothing against a D/s relationship that arises out of devotion... in fact, I really lean towards them. If you had a person in your life that you could trust in every aspect of your care, you would be given the gift of having a great number of burdens lifted from your mind. To serve their needs in exchange seems a small price for this luxury.
Most of the D/s relationships I see on the grid, however, appear to arise from a need for dominance, which is a pity. People belittle one another and seem to have a driving need to assert their power over one another. It's about control, not about freedom. It's a really fine line and a hard one to distinguish.
In other words, anyone worthy of collaring me won't need the collar.
This is a facinating discussion, and like Sue, I have a real desire to understand. The thought of giving my power completely to another repels me, and yet if I'm really honest with myself, I see subtle shades of this in my rl relationship, and these "shades" are not things that repel me at all. Reading descriptions of Gor relationships remind me at times of the wording of those old Harlequin Romance novels. There was a lot of surrendering, conquering and mastery in them. :)
I've really appreciated reading everyone's comments, there is a definite dark side to this issue, even a criminal one, yet after being in SL for two years, I realize that it's not the only side,
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Since I'm still learning the "Vox" talk and how to work it I'm not even sure if I'm using the quote block right...apologies upfront.
I think out of all that I've heard here the "pop some Xanax" comment probably tweaked me the most....and while i know this is an emotional issue for many, in many ways I think that to just dismiss this issue, is honestly insulting. (see I say I think so please be aware this is my opinion and not some rule of the world or arbitrarily divined thought that is the only correct way to think because I say it is so)
So to say that taking a xanax will solve so great a division of opinions or someone's issues or concerns with self esteem? I am so overwhelmed with the thought I'm close to going Valley Girl on your arse. Hello? Well, d'oh? Please let's not dismiss what really is and can be a valid and wonderful relationship for those who choose to live it.
So rather than get personal about this entire issue, or my reaction to someone's response.....
Honestly A. Tae's take on things is very similar to my own. When I first came to SL, I responded quite negatively. I saw all the XXX places, the fetish, the strip joints, the bars, the Pixel Prostitues, the inane talk that occured around them and even the men (?) that would land uninvited on my little strip of PG land sporting a hardened male member at the ready and probably giggling like a schoolgirl at their keyboard, as I would very nicely tell them to put their toy away and go home to someone who was remotely interested. I hated it. Sincerely.
My issue was my boyfriend/life partner fell in love with SL from Day one. Me, I would have rather been playing WoW or (now) Lord of the Rings Online...and slashing and bashing my way through all sorts of fictional quests and journeys.
We have an agreement in our household that we game together. We may not be joined at the hip, but we do game together. To be fair to his wishes as he has done this over and over for me, I had to find something that I liked within this world.
I shopped alot. A whole lot. In fact once I discovered skins, prim hair and shoes....I was in a virtual heaven for a while....and my ass looked pretty damn good in those outfits too! Not bad for a virtual girl. And of course I learned early on I could buy Lindens. So......more hair, shoes, outfits and 100's of skins....
That lasted a few weeks and then I realized....I still was bored.
So I started trying to explore. I went to all sorts of places, and like others, I stumbled onto Gor. I was not inexperienced with Gor, in fact for many years I was a slavegirl IRL, as well as, online. For many reasons my love and I have chosen not to continue with this lifestyle at this time. There will always be some component of it within our relationship, but for now we're Vanilla with a twist. Gor visits stopped though as I realized I was no longer really of that world, and didn't really want to 'live it' anymore. That's okay but it doesn't mean in any shape of form that I felt it was not a valid lifestyle, it just isn't right for me any longer.
Eventually I found a creative release within SL, and that is really why I even stay here. I have a few close friends in the community, but I don't party, and I don't use this is a sexual outlet, I don't need to use it for anything other than a way to express myself artistically. So, off the personal revelation time and onto the why:
There are so many reasons why people choose to entrust another to this degree, and like all relationships there is some exchange of power. Seriously, start looking to yourself to see what you choose to give up and what you don't in your own relationship. When I first was kajira and then trained up to redsilk, and first girl within a Gorean community......I looked around me and was able to see that I had been a slavegirl most of my life in so many things. At first this embarrassed me highly. I am a very successful woman. I am an intelligent woman. But...that part of me had been there even as a young girl. Accepting 'her' was important to me, and it has also been important to me to accept she will always be a part of me. There is nothing any woman should ever have to apologize for in this. Honestly, when I see women react strongly to the fact that a person could submit to another....I understand that they may not be in touch with power exchange and what it is in our day to day life.
So I guess what I would ask, is that like Riversong, Thaumata, and A Tau who are able to get beyond the emotional trigger and accept without judging: please don't hear the word 'slave' and shudder, or get out the pity stick. Take the time to really learn what it really is and don't group it within those social concepts or constructs of homelessness, poverty, minorities or any of those words that have heavy emotional triggers attached. Just close your eyes and see.
Daequix
Most relationships, even vanilla ones, contain power exchanges. In some relationships one partner is always Dominant, in other relationships whoever is Dominant changes almost constantly. That, however, doesn't mean that the whole relationship should become a D/s one. Some couples only practice D/s in the bedroom, others in the home, others all the time and some never.Most relationships, even vanilla ones, contain power exchanges. In some relationships one partner is always Dominant, in other relationships whoever is Dominant changes almost constantly. That, however, doesn't mean that the whole relationship should become a D/s one. Some coupl
Dae
As I reread what was posted it occured to me:
As a young slavegirl, early years: my first Master began a nightly ritual for me (I was instructed to do this every night) in which I journaled. My feelings...no matter what they were. His rule was: nothing was verboten...period. (forbidden)
If I was angry for something, hurt by something, stewing, even plotting (lol)...it went in this journal. And yes, slavegirls do get angry, they do pout, they do cry, they do yell at times, and they do defy rules. His second rule was: nothing was forbidden to feel, or to think and there would never be any backlash from the expression of this. In my journal, and this continued into my current relationship for many years...I freely wrote what I felt, thought, etcetera. It was always something that He could read. But...hear this...never a punishment. The idea behind this was that he would know what made me tick, and in turn help me understand this as well. I never had anyone in my life prior to Gor, or subsequently in my D/s relationship with Soli who knew me or even cared to know me so deeply.
So many of us get hung up on the 'reaction' to things without really looking into what it is. I honestly would challenge you all to put your prejudices aside, and sit down and talk to a slave girl. Please select her with care cause there are some idiots out there as well that wear silks :) But select an intelligent, thoughtful, introspective woman that like yourself has a thought and can put them together with meaning, and realize that Dominance and submission like other life choices are journeys...and that path is one elected or selected by that person and that person alone.
First life is piling up heavily this past week, and I've barely had any time at all to be online, but before I dash out the door to the next thing I wanted to take a moment to say thank you. There is so much intelligent, thoughtful discourse here that I can't be anything but grateful. The amount of time that people have invested into sharing their thoughts openly, honestly and with a great deal of intelligence is beyond what I could have hoped for in being able to explore this issue more deeply.
I wish I had time at the moment to leave a more thoughtful response right now, but I -am- running out the door again, and I do hope to return soon so that I can chat a little with you all about this.
Thank you! This has been more than a little mindblowing in all the right ways :^)
I'm a former slave in Gor, now in straight SL, in a committed slave relationship with a man I met in Gor (not how you think but that's his story to tell.) Our relationship started in SL and extends into real. My interest in BDSM in Gor was zero before SL. My experience pretty much like Dae's and her story I've heard from others. Got in, shopped till I was cross-eyed, looked around "what is there to *do* here?"
Stumbled into Gor because, I was following some well designed male AVs. Let's face it folks, the vast majority of guys in here slap down $35 bucks, buy a dick and maybe some jeans. Boring...no mind there just blunt sex -- hehe. So, I was wondering who were these guys that were putting time into looking hot and why. Long story short discovered a lot about myself in Gor particularly about my sexuality. That for me is what is missing a bit from the discussion.
Gor, BDSM, S&M, DOM/SUB, 25/7, Master/Slave...it all comes down to sexuality. One of the basic universals for human beings. We all have in common three things mind, body, and environment. By environment, I mean simply the presence of mind and body manifest in the sensual world. Based on their own particular combination of mind/body/environment people have an innate affinity or repulsion to certain experiences. Be it eating raw fish or being cropped raw.
Innately, my relationship with my Master just "does it" for me. What Sol said:
"There's an old joke in the D/s community 'What I do is kinky - what you do is weird.' Which is to say, we're all biased towards what we prefer."
The answer to your why then Sue is because it feels good to me and it hurts no one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now Gala would object when I say "hurts no one." She says words are powerful...yes they are...Still, the fact that I'm expressing my sexuality in a M/s relationship does *not* allow or promote the problems you list:
"i, too worked with homeless women and abused kids and teenagers a while back, mainly what north Americans would call the " minority people ", and what I've seen, baby's being sold for crack, toddlers being sexually abused by some bastards, teenagers being send out by their own mothers to trick, to make money for her next fix!?!"
That is poverty...that is social inequality..that is human beings living together and has gone on for thousands of years. How accepted or not such things are depends on the societal environment in which you are living. I work daily with people who come to the US from 2nd and 3rd world environments. I've traveled and lived outside the US. What is the norm for us is *not* the norm for others simple fact.
A simply study of history will tell you that such concerns are a function of economics, of population, and even of geography --- IOW environment. Am I dismissing such concerns, not at all...NOT AT ALL. I think we live in a time where we could eliminate many of them. And I do my part to help with that. HOWEVER, I think the idea that some sexual human expressions are simply innately "bad" in comparison to others and that these behaviors cause a society's problems is just myopic and frankly dangerous.
I guess chanting "hear hear!" won't work as a strong show of support :) However, leesha hit the nail on the head so to speak. Nicely said.
Now....I'm going to sit back with Yoda and share the box for a while....if he'll move his big arse :)
Dae
dae, am i hitting a sensitive button when i've talked about 'pop some xanax' ?!? when i wrote the 'xanax' part , i don't know in which way your mind was wandering but i exagerated in terms of people should slow their role in sl. yet you seem to be taken the " xanax part " very seriously. if anyone knows about xanax - they also know that this drug wont be prescribed by no doc for a long period of time due to its habit forminf effect - aka - you wont get it, unless you may be a superstar with loads of money to " pay " for the doc and the drug.
anyhow... it is all whatever to me, your incoherrent essays like responses about your slave relationships. you said the same thing about 4 times at the end of your reply, which makes me think, there is someting deeper going on with you on your side then just a ' healthy D/s relationship'?!?.......
i, too can get all ghetto gutter whatever torwards you and circumsize your lingo in a quick minute. but you've already showed and told me about yourself and the underlaying insecurity you seem to hold deep within you.
i wonder if any of you slave hobbiest are against women wearing a burqa, because most north americans understanding of a women wearing a burqa in rl is a opression against her " rights of being a independent female in a muslim society".
yet most of you may don't understand the real and true meaning behind the tradition and rules of the islamic religion.
what i am getting too, is .... is it ok to wear a " virtual veil " but not to wear a burqa in a rl public place?
you all be the judge!
gala~
In any event, I did not mean or wish to attack you personally, and if it did come off in that manner, I apologize. I actually avoided answering for a few days so I would not 'react' but I obviously did react, and I was emotional about it. I don't deny that. However attacking you was not my intent. I get tired of 'defending' D/s to outsiders at times, but I will continue to do so. I honestly just wanted to discuss this intelligently and without adding in external social triggers or other threads that dismantle the effectiveness. Afterall, this thread was brought up to help interested others understand what makes an intelligent person wish to submit to another. (( Also, not sure Valley Girl is really 'ghetto gutter' but...okay. It's more like white bread.))
To respond to your questions about the burqa: It is seen by many as being oppressive, but also affords security to some women whether it be from adherence to the more traditional feel in their life or many other reasons. I actually am unlike many North Americans in that I don't rely on journalists to help me form opinions. Rather I try to read a variety of things to get a feel of different and opposing views to better understand the underlying issues and then form my own personal opinion. I also believe strongly that my opinion is mine, and not anyone else's.
I have no problem with a burqa in public, it is afterall a part of some cultures....at this point in time the burga is not enforced (to my knowledge) and it is a choice to wear or not to wear. This choice like many others is most likely influenced by one's family and relationships. I can not hope to answer this in any way than as an outsider, since I am a Valley Girl for real and not of Middle Eastern descent.
To quote you at the end: "you said the same thing about 4 times at the end of your reply, which makes me think, there is someting deeper going on with you on your side then just a ' healthy D/s relationship'?!?..."
My 'essay's' must have truly been incoherent if you didn't understand that I am no longer in a D/s relationship. And perhaps you misunderstood my second posting...it was stating that I mistakenly put the final paragraph in. Just a clarification.
Dae
I'm running out the door to another doctor's appointment but wanted to tuck a note in before I go.
First, Dae, I want to thank you for taking the time to continue talking about this inspite of what an emotional issue it is, especially after having just lost your mum a few weeks ago. I know when I asked you to keep talking about this it was from a purely selfish point of view, because you opened a door to an issue that I have craved some level of intelligent dialogue and insight on for a very long time, and you've more than provided it! It's been a gift to be able to read through all of the thinking people have shared here, because in spite of this being a very complex issue, and a very emotional one, the more perpectives that there are shared the easier it is to grasp some of the things that have shaped my own biases on this.
One of the things that really stands out is that for many of us our personal experiences play a large role in shaping not only the way we think about this, but colour it with a great deal of emotion. Is everyone noticing the common thread we have? Many of us are in the "business of helping people" in our real lives! That seems to suggest that we are people that not only speak from the heart but that we do care passionately about the wellbeing of others, and I think that is an intrinsically cool thing to share! I say this having an inbox full of private messages from people who have wanted to post here in response as well, but have been too afraid to for various reasons. This isn't an easy issue for anyone to talk about, and I am so grateful that people are still coming here to broaden the discourse a bit more in spite of how hard that may be to do. Those folks who have sent private messages are also people in healing professions, and ironic that a number of them have also experienced violence and rape.
I'll out myself and say now that the latter is one of the things that wildly colours my own view. Perhaps this is why I press on and feel the need to expand my own context for this particular issue, because while on first glance to many people this may be about the power and in the same blush as what provokes the kind of violent attacks characterized by rape, I have to say I disagree.
The consentual trade of power and control for the purposes of role playing with someone you trust and love is about as far from the violent experiences that punctuated my own life could be. I recognize this. I don't confuse the two, and my struggle to understand this particular issue better is in some respects also an effort to continue to heal.
My own healer will have my arse on a platter if I don't get to her now, respecting the clock ~grins~
I really just wanted to say thank you, all of you, for sticking it out. I know this is a tough thing to talk about. I think the fact that we have this one very cool thing in common -- what drives us to care about other people and respond through our professions and choices as volunteers -- is a pretty powerful touchstone to hang onto, and that as emotionally charged as this issue is, I hope we can still keep talking about it and chipping away at the parts we don't have a common context for instead of chipping away at each other. That last part is -really- hard for me. When I arrived in SL I was very quick to attack the character of even some of my closest colleagues for choices they made that I did not understand. I feel like quite an arse about it now, and more than ever am driven to be brave enough to invite a little chat around these things, and am insanely grateful when so many intelligent and caring people respond!
Thanks so very much, all of you.
Namaste,
Sue.
D/s is a sexual practice and you Gala are discussing it as if it were a religion or cultural practice. It is as if you are equating the missionary position with wearing exercise clothes in public. Good friend of my Silverdrake said this and I think it applies:
I have come from an absolute repulsion towards BDSM to a delight in it. It is all a question of will. Torture and economic slavery are unwilling and therefore heinous - they have sadly become confused with consensual domination and submission.
To her words I would add torture and economic slavery are societal practices. Consenual domination and submission are private individual practices. Why do you care what I do in my bedroom?
i, too work in the medical field, dae, and i am well aware about drugs, just like yourself it seems. you did clarify yourself a lot better in this reply and i probably understand you a tad more or where you are coming from. maybe we agree to disagree. but i suppose this makes the world go round.
a few things about me, i am of moroccan/ ukrainian herritage, yet i was brought up in munich germany. i grew up in a society that is pretty much very casual about anything regarding our sexuality or practices. we see nude people in every magazine we open up, billboards by the bustop, just everywhere. kids grow up, seeing their parents nude ( not in a sexual way ) but a natural way, because we were born like this. sexuality, in which or whatever form, was a part of my upbringing.
everything was pretty much open and not hush hush into the closet the doppel moral standard that i've been seeing so much since i've moved to this country/ usa that is.
i've talked to people on sl about these things, and at one time the question came up, ' have you ever seen your parent naked '. the males were pretty much outraged, one commented 'if i've ever would see my mom naked, this would have ruined my sex life'. which may sounds ' haha' funny to some, but i personally thought, wtf is wrong with you - thats your parent, it is not like yu look at her/ him in a sexual way.
- - -
anyhow, leesha, i am a very blunt woman with a in your face attitude -when needed, in rl and in sl.
i don't care what you do in your bedroom, i don't care if gay, nongay, if you get your ass beaten into oblivion - i don't care. if that floats your boat to be in a D/s relationship so be it.
my issue with this is, when it is carried into a virtual world, where everything is based on text chat, and i see females in nadu for hours not saying anything, posted outside in their city like an unwanted dog and are not allowed to talk...this makes me raise an eyebrow. it also upsets me, that " gor ", uses part of the arabic culture to degrade females in a open setting of gor related play.the clothes, the color scheme, the tremendous desire to serve someone, who you don't know in rl. someone that you may would despite if you would see him in rl. someone that uses his keyboard to gain some online power over a female. i am not saying that ALL masters are like that, i am sure there are nice ands consenting ones out there.
yet the bottomline for me is - this happens in a virtual world, kids av sexplay happen in a virtual world. how do you justify " consenting adults partipating " in kid av sex?
what if they would ask you the same question as you've asked me " what is it any of your business what i do in my bedroom "?!
these pixels are made into a kid shape form and since we humans are visualizing everything... how the hell do you react to something like THAT?!
do you make it your business... or walk away?
gala~
Personally, I never hold anyone else’s views in disrespect, because in order to have a logical, clear understanding of a topic, you must see all sides of the story… I can’t get shitty with someone, unless I know for a 100% fact that they are -wrong-…. and it is rare that I consider myself with enough understanding of a situation to go that far…
One may view this information as informative, and another may say it has nothing to do with the situation… I’m going to side on the belief that it has everything to do with it and here’s why:
According to Sigmund Freud’s Personality Theory there are three ‘model‘s of personality‘, working together, to create our individual uniqueness. Regardless of if we are D/s fans and followers, or foes we all carry the same three systems of personality…
Everyone has a different psychological makeup, everyone is driven by subconscious desires and dislikes.
Different blends of these three ’ego’, ’super ego’ and ’ID’ create the diversity and uniqueness in society.
In a D/s relationship, it would appear to me that there is a different agreement between the “ID” and the “ego”… a rationalization trigger that will allow the D/s supporter to argue to the teeth the benefits and pleasures of their relationships…
In one who does not favor the D/s lifestyle, their “ego” is set firmer against it. Their ‘ego’ has not allowed them the elasticity in reality to go that far… and perhaps their ‘superego’ has a subconscious block on the idea from the things learned/not learned as a child.
In the end, there is no wrong or right, no way could anyone tell me how to feel, as it was predetermined for me (by me)…. its all about the chemicals in our head and heart. No one person will be able to change the opinion of another on this situation… What we perceive as right or wrong in a sexual relationship has been cultivated, and is still being cultivated as we learn, acquire new perceptions and move on through this life….
((
http://allpsych.com/personalitysynopsis/drives.html )).<3 A.Tae
I just have an edit on my previous post, subtract the 'disrespect' and change that to respect...I meant it to read that I respect everyones opinions and views. My bad!
"my issue with this is, when it is carried into a virtual world, where everything is based on text chat, and i see females in nadu for hours not saying anything, posted outside in their city like an unwanted dog and are not allowed to talk...this makes me raise an eyebrow."
This may upset you, but it does not upset them or they would not be choosing that role. If it upsets you don't visit a Gorean SIM simple. One of the really nice things about SL is it is pretty clear what "channel" you are choosing when you TP via search.
Gala continues:
it also upsets me, that " gor ", uses part of the Arabic culture to degrade females in a open setting of Gor related play.the clothes, the color scheme, the tremendous desire to serve someone, who you don't know in RL. someone that you may would despite if you would see him in RL. someone that uses his keyboard to gain some online power over a female. i am not saying that ALL masters are like that, i am sure there are nice ands consenting ones out there.
I don't believe that John Norman pulled exclusively from the Arabic culture. The books lift from a great many cultures as Gor is an entire world with varied climates just like Earth. (And, let's face it, ole John not the best writer so I doubt he thought it out that much.) For example, there are Norse-like Gorean areas too. The silks are popular because they are pretty and revealing men like them yes...women like them more I assure you.
Not sure what you mean by "nice and consenting" but I suspect you mean...just like dude X you run into at the mall. For the most part that's what those "Masters" are in Gor. They'd rather role play a 300-like battle than hang around with a slave girl ordering her about. When they are with their slave girl it is pretty much like any exclusive heterosexual relationship on Earth. Snore. :-D
Then, Gala wrote this:
yet the bottom line for me is - this happens in a virtual world, kids av sex play happen in a virtual world. how do you justify " consenting adults participating " in kid av sex? what if they would ask you the same question as you've asked me " what is it any of your business what i do in my bedroom "?! these pixels are made into a kid shape form and since we humans are visualizing everything... how the hell do you react to something like THAT?! do you make it your business... or walk away?
OK. Before I opine (hehe) about this issue, we should agree we have left Sue's discussion or why role play a slave. For me, the question you are really asking is, what should the limits be? Many, many, people pick the adults who are RPing kids in SL as the most evil thing they can think of and so does the media.
Kid AVs role played by adults was a bit of an "miniature horse" factor for me to orginally. Let me explain, I used to ride horses a lot and was competing. I had, however, come to horses later in life. When managing a horse show, I arranged for some folks with miniature horses to come give a presentation. Not realizing, apparently, that many "normal" horses are entirely FREAKED by miniature horses. Something to do with the size relative to behavior issue. Looks like a horse, smells like a horse, but OMFG it is WAY TO SMALL is pretty much the reaction. It felt off to me and so did adults RPing kids... Still miniature horses are valid animals and I'm no horse.
So, I began to think why are these people doing this? There may be people who had their childhood taken away somehow...maybe these people are taking back their childhood by RPing a child. Maybe someone gets off on being a infantalized...a not uncommon fetish. In Germany, if you watched one of the many sex talk shows...infantalism comes up often as I recall. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantalism) To assume that everyone RPing a child or with a child AV in SL is a Pedophile, well, it is an assumption. The best way to find out for sure is to ask.
Asking would be my reaction I suppose...though I must say everyone in SL main is supposed to be a consenting Adult. Again an assumption which I'm sure is occasionally faulty. Then, lets go one step forward and say they are actually *are* RPing for some reason pedophilia. Is that bad? Hmmmm...well maybe not. What if one of the benefits of SL is that we can act out that which we otherwise would NEVER do in real...like gunning down a crowd, dying on a cross, becoming a leopard, or flying? Wouldn't that be better than acting out such things in real?
Obviously the above was taken out of context but I have to say I do understand this feeling, Gala...that of treating nudity and sexuality in a different manner than most North Americans. As well as, the idea of nudity being a natural state. My family, American though it was grew up with nudity being an accepted state... I think it was demonstrated to me how nudity is handled differently by many, when going through some of my Mother's pictures after her death recently. My brother, his girlfriend, and Soli were there: suddenly both Soli and Melody (the girlfriend) are hiding a picture. My brother and I wanted to know what picture it was...in fact we finally laughingly insisted we see it despite comments that we would be scarred for life. It was a picture of my Dad in the shower, full frontal nudity...omg...scarred? No, we saw that one when it was taken, it was no big deal. My mom used to say she missed and shot to low. We never believed her. lol
A couple of points I'd like to address....and at the risk of veering totally off the subject on one, I still want to respond:
Gala writes: i see females in nadu for hours not saying anything, posted outside in their city like an unwanted dog and are not allowed to talk
I've had many delightful conversations with slaves in nadu at port entries, etcetera in SL. While I can't know precisely why they didn't speak to you- it could be a variety of things: many slaves do go afk, granted they are not supposed to without letting their Master know, but...many do. I had a few sisters (slavegirls often call one another sister) who quite often were afk for a variety of reasons or other. The only ones who would 'need' to know this were the girl's Master and perhaps a close sister (possibly one owned by the same Master). Not being permitted to speak, could in addition be a form of punishment or merely, she is not permitted to speak to strangers. Most especially white silks might be prohibited in speaking with a strange person. They are often protected quite fiercely from undue influences. My 6 months as a white silk, in my first Gorean family, was for training purposes and so I could learn the culture in a loving environment. I selected this family myself, was good friends with His first girl, and asked HER first if she would mind if I begged His collar. She was delighted and she became my best teacher at that time in my life. I was not permitted to speak to any person other than my Master, his family of slaves,and 'cleared' friends when at home or in the city. If I was out IRL all holds were off, because life had to continue, nor was I his slave IRL. There are a multitude of reasons that can explain why a girl could be silent in nadu, they are not always nefarious.
Gala writes: kids av sexplay happen in a virtual world. how do you justify " consenting adults partipating " in kid av sex?
This is one hot potato here Gala! lol I have several friends that are kid AV's. I have a 'family' of friends that have 4 kids. They roleplay an actual family. In fact they were (the kids) delighted one day when Soli showed up in a tiny puppy avatar and I had to tell them "No, you can not take him home!" *grumbles* No sex involved that I have ever been aware of.
The reality is, I think we should be more concerned with those 'children' that we are NOT aware of as being minors. The actual child is the real danger in my opinion. Those that sneak onto the main grid, are not going to reveal that they are underage for fear of being kicked right back off. Anyone who participates in sex with people you do not know, could indeed be having sex with Roger Rabbit, a 92 year old male or female, a 12 year old child, or your brother. That is the major danger, in my opinion. Not some person who likes calling her boyfriend Daddy, or loves to be cuddled, or spanked. Or gets a kick out of running around in a child av. While that gives some of you the willies, I just don't see the harm in it. If you don't like it, then please leave that area, thats what I do when I stumble upon someone having sex in a public area or anything that bothers me. There are enough illegal activities going on in SL already- prostitution abounds here. I haven't heard anyone protesting that at all, in fact its pretty well accepted. People openly advertise it on open channels.
leesha writes: I don't believe that John Norman pulled exclusively from the Arabic culture. The books lift from a great many cultures as Gor is an entire world with varied climates just like Earth. (And, let's face it, ole John not the best writer so I doubt he thought it out that much.) For example, there are Norse-like Gorean areas too. The silks are popular because they are pretty and revealing men like them yes...women like them more I assure you.
John Norman was not a great novelist...in fact he's pretty weak. However I still love his books. I've read almost every one, and often pull them out and reread them. I have a Tarl hangup....(what Gorean slavegirl former or otherwise doesn't?) I have to agree on this, as well as, the fact that Norman drew his Gorean society from many sources...Earthly and otherwise: The most well known cultures:
Wagon People- a band of nomadic people who lived in wagons on the plains. They herded a cattle-type creature called the Bosk. There were 4 individual tribes.
Rencers- reside in the swamps surrounding the city of Port Kar. They live on large floating islands, and make paper, cloth and other materials from the papyrus-like reeds that grow there.
Port Kar - a naval culture- mostly comprised of slavers and pirate like people.
Torvaldslanders- these are the Norse/Viking type Goreans- the land is cold, they wear furs as opposed to silks.
Tahari- somewhat akin to the Bedouins- they live in the desert, and are likened to the Arabian culture.
Red Hunters- these are similiar to the Inuit of North America. They are described as having coppery skins. They subsist on whales, and sea sleen.
Red Savages- similar to pre-Columbian North American Aborigines. They do not like 'white' Goreans normally.
This is just a brief overview of some of the many cultures on Gor.
Sue writes: Dae, I want to thank you for taking the time to continue talking about this inspite of what an emotional issue it is...
Sue, actually its you I want to thank for hosting this discussion and starting it. My photo/pic was posted in reaction to some thoughts I was mulling over myself. Its been nice to revisit some of these thoughts, to rethink them and to explore them with a new set of people...even when the opinions are diverse and at times a bit heated. I've actually made a few new friends in this process, and for that I am thankful.
My thanks for the patient listen to my response :)
Dae
I like what A Tae said:
In the end, there is no wrong or right, no way could anyone tell me how to feel, as it was predetermined for me (by me)…. its all about the chemicals in our head and heart. No one person will be able to change the opinion of another on this situation.
The really neat thing about this discussion is how reasonable everyone was about some really hot button topics. I don't expect to have my mind changed with each discussion as A Tae points out hard to do that any way. But I love having it stretched and this discussion did that.
Sue...wanted to add my thanks as well to the many that have appeared here...a very good discussion.
I know conversations like these can really wear people out, especially when the emotions run so high. I'm so grateful that people keep coming back and continuing to talk about this. It's a complex thing and that's why I've really craved a real dialogue about it.
I ended up thinking about this chat we've been having for an entirely different reason tonight. Odd set of circumstances (my son got attacked) but it lead me right back here. I didn't want to dilute the focus of this conversation that's been evolving (although I suspect it will continue to take it's own twists and turns as we find other things in the layers below), so I posted a separate thread here:
Word Games: Tolerance or Acceptance?
http://suestonebender.vox.com/library/post/word-games-tolerance-or-acceptance.html
I'm just very, very grateful for people's patience and care. This has been a really wonderful way to gain insight into something that can be very difficult to talk about.
Namaste,
Sue.
leesha, there we go " you have not been in gor that long ", yet you show some attitude on here like you know it all. you probably know as much as i do about gor. yes i've read, yes i've met slave girls, some whom were very nice and polite, some who dont say a dam word. also met panther ladies and one was very nice and full of knowledge and explained a whole lot to me about being a part of gor.
as for your childish remark - just " don't go there " - man shaddap. i go anywhere i please too, simply because i can, this is my SL.
i dont run into a gor sim and weild my ak 47, i have more sense than that. i was polite as i can be by entering someone's private sim, but i did showed my concern about virtual D/s rp.
that has been a while ago tho, and i don't have any desire to go back and (( rp along ))
so really i don't have to much to say to you, you make little sense to me and maybe have to learn more about gor play. hell i don't know and i really don't care.
some of the stuff being said on here tho, regarding ageplay... serious up people, thats wrong just dead wrong.
anyhow,
gala out~
I am however, having a very real M/s relationship with a man in SL and in real. Which, I think, does qualify me to join this discussion though there again, you have not stated whether that would meet your criteria for valid commentary.
This is not your SL as you put it. It is our SL, yours, mine, Sue's, Dae's, that furry down the block, and the age player that so offends you. And of course you can go anywhere you like on SL, it is wide open frontier. It seems to me, though, if you go somewhere that you find repellent on a regular basis, the problem is yours not that of the people that created the SIM or of those that inhabit it.
I want to thank Art for directing me to this conversation. First up, I want to express my condolences to Dae about her mother and my hopes to Sue that her son is okay.
This is a huge subject. Like many, I was appalled by slavery the first time I encountered it in SL. My ancestors were slavetraders - it hits very, very close to home for me. I'm a member of ECPAT and other organizations that work to empower women and girls. I have studied Arabic language and culture, and had discussions with a female muslim friend about her decision to wear the veil.
However, over time I have come to see that SL is all about fantasy and consent - no one can force anyone in SL to do something against their will. In this way, roleplaying a fantasy with another person in SL can be an empowering experience. Let's take rape as an example: I was interested in roleplaying in the Crack Den precisely because of my experiences with self-defense in real life. I was very curious about how I would respond to someone threatening me. The first attempt by someone to "rape" my avatar resulted in a trip to the hospital for their avatar. The next few attempts
grr - my comment got cut off:
led to the assailants giving up as I explained why it would be a bad idea to rape the doctor who would either be dead when they needed their gunshot wound treated or would have them powerless on the operating table with a scalpel in her hand.
So this was an interesting and empowering experience for me. Would it work in real life? I don't know, but it gave me the chance to try some strategies.
I occasionally roleplay a Freewoman in a Norse Gor sim. I'm not interested in roleplaying a slave, since I've never met a male avatar I respect enough to put complete decision-making in his hands, but having gotten to know people, male and female, who roleplay slaves, I can say that they don't see it as a demeaning experience. In fact, it is often the slave who directs the relationship. In addition, many of the slaves are the architects and administrators of the Gorean sims. It's NOTHING like real-life slavery or economic bondage.
As to why a woman would choose to roleplay a slave character, maybe she's curious about how she would have handled living before female emancipation. Maybe she's tired of making decisions in real life or has a husband who is passive sexually, and wants someone to take control for a change. I did wonder whether people would see SL Gor as condoning female slavery irl, but concluded that anyone who thinks that roleplaying a fantasy means that all real women should be submissive obviously had a screw loose before they even came into SL.
I see SL as a place where people can be free to try absolutely anything without getting hurt in real life - anything that happens in SL, you can log off and walk away. I'm sorry to see that people keep trying to impose their own ideas of social correctness, whether liberal or conservative, on everyone else.
I believed one person also somewhere in this topic stated that if I don’t want to be involved in any way with the Gore lifestyle, just don’t go to their sims. Okay no problem with that at all! :) But ahhh...why do I have to be subjected to it when shopping for hair, skins ect in a non gore sim again? Why do I have to see a nearly naked woman or man, on his or her spread knees, exposing them selves at the foot of someone’s feet? What about my right to go shopping and not have to be subjected to seeing that? What people do in there own bedroom is their own business…that’s fine by me. Please keep it there. If you are really respectful to other’s feelings as much as you say you are, keep the in character play out of the shops and non gorean sims.
Imho, the romanticizing of slavery in virtual reality only does at least this…it dishonors the memory and sacrifices of those made in reality. Millions of people have fought and died for the hope of freedom and to maintain it. And all for what?
"I see SL as a place where people can be free to try absolutely anything without getting hurt in real life - anything that happens in SL, you can log off and walk away."Can you grantee that statement? Can you say that nobody at all would fall subject to being emotionally broken down and brainwashed by a manipulative, determined sociopath? Physically yes you’re safe until the “Dom” orders you to do something to yourself after brainwashing you and threatens to take away his or her love and affection. As for emotionally getting hurt? You can certainly count on it.
Wake up, there is no such thing as “safe.”
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